Impossible foods and Beyond Meat- are they really possible? And other plant based questions with Dr Tani Khara Ep. 11

Episode 11 January 04, 2023 00:31:59
Impossible foods and Beyond Meat- are they really possible? And other plant based questions with Dr Tani Khara Ep. 11
The Recombobulator Lab
Impossible foods and Beyond Meat- are they really possible? And other plant based questions with Dr Tani Khara Ep. 11

Jan 04 2023 | 00:31:59

/

Hosted By

Jason Graham-Nye Chris Dominic

Show Notes

Did you know that Australia's meat consumption is almost 3 times the global average? And 25 times higher than meat consumption per capita in India? This week on the Recombobulator Lab podcast Chris and Jason speak to Dr Tani Khara, research consultant with the Institute for Sustainable Futures. They talk about plant based trends around the world and discuss what role, if any, meat replacements play in this. 

India and vegetarianism 

20-30% of people report being vegetarian in India. 

Religion and consumption 

Only some types of Hinduism or certain practices within some types of Hinduism are prohibited from consuming all meat. 

 

In Islam, Christianity and Judiasm people can usually consume meat, with some restrictions. 

Hypocrisy in meat consumption 

India is one of the biggest beef exporters in the world, despite their low consumption internally. Tani thinks this is a “nationalistic, right wing, religious protocol”. 

Live export of beef from Australia 

Jason asks Tani if the reason Australia exports cattle live to the Middle East is for halal purposes. She says it’s a factor, as well as freshness. 

 

For any listeners wondering what halal is- it is a certification given to food meaning it has been prepared in a certain way in accordance with the Islamic faith. 

Meat consumption and stomach cancer 

In Japan as beef consumption increased so too did cases of stomach cancer. Tani says there is a lot of data on meat consumption, especially red meat consumption, and its association with diabetes, obesity and cancer. 

 

The World Health Organisation also released a study about the carcinogens in red meat causing cancer. 

Secret meat eaters in Dr Khara’s research 

There is a taboo associated with eating meat in India. Tani has a whole paper about the different kinds of secret meat eating in the different segments of Indian society. 

 

People in the study ate meat in secret during certain festivals or days of the week where they weren’t supposed to be eating meat. Or some weren’t allowed to eat meat in their homes so went to restaurants to consume meat in secret. 

Protein based meat alternatives 

These are meat alternatives made from other protein rich, plant based sources. Tani says these can include soy and legumes. Another option in mycoprotein, which is a fermented fungus product. 

Dr Khara’s research 

In a recent study Tani did with the Institute of Sustainable Futures (ISF) they found out replacing just 25% of beef consumption with plant based protein would:

Links

Documentary: From Farm to Fridge by Mercy for Animals 



View Full Transcript

Episode Transcript

To the Recombobulator lab with Jason Graham-Nye and Chris. Dominic. Good morning, Chris. Good morning. I, I hear surf and birds, I hear surf and birds. My, my five week work trip in Indonesia is never ending. And yes, we did move from Jakarta back to Bali and um, wow. It is very, very pleasant. But we are doing some, um, high pressured work and we felt we needed to be in a really pretty part of the world to do that. So yes, we're very lucky. But don't mind the birds. No. Well, I won't mind the birds. I might enjoy the birds. I have. We ha Has anybody asked you in Kim, if you're married yet, just to, you know, double check? Um, yeah, yeah, because <laugh>, because of the new laws. Yeah, Yeah. I thought, yeah, yeah. Oh my Gosh, it's so bizarre. I, I think it's illegal to have sex out of wedlock. Is that the New law? Yeah. Yeah, it is. Yeah, it is. And, and because because Barley's the number one Australian tourist destination. There's this whole extra element of, well, if you're a single guy or girl up here and you have a casual hookup with someone up here and they're also single, does that mean you're gonna jail for a year? It's quite fraught. I can only imagine that there's a certain amount of people that, that go to Bali for casual hookups. Right? I mean, like, it's supposed to be kind of a party spot, right? It really is. So the next, yeah, it's gonna be an interesting time. Wow. Wow. Well, Jason, what, what are we doing today? What, what are we doing? Actually, we, we, we are welcoming Dr. Tani Carra, who is a PhD, um, and senior research consultant at the University of Technology, Sydney, which is where I'm doing some research as well. So we are, we, we are known to each other. So Welcome Dr. Karara. How are you? Many thanks, Jason. Thank you. Um, and lovely to hear about your time in Bali and, and everything else. <laugh> and the background. <laugh>, <laugh>. Sorry. You did peak our interest, didn't you? I Know, sorry. Well, so Dr. Karara has been so helpful for me in my research, but, um, she is a PhD in cross-cultural consumption and human animal interactions. It's so interesting. Wow. Um, that's so, yes. Very cool. Well, Dr. Car, I, I'm so curious. Can we start with a description of your PhD in layman's terms? Cuz that is, that's a degree I is new to me. Yeah, sure, Chris. So, um, the PhD was, um, I mean really just the title of the PhD was exploring meat consumption practices in Australia and India, more specifically Sydney and Mumbai, with a view towards encouraging reduced meat reduction. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. So what the PhD what the research involved was sort of, um, understanding meat consumption practices using sort of a framework, uh, from sociology called social practice theory, which I think Jason is also using as part of PhD. Um, so Jason's probably quite familiar with the framework and, um, and we kind of, sort of, I use this framework to really understand what drives meat consumption behavior in Australia and compare that to India. So there are two obviously very different countries in many different respects. Um, I guess the key difference being that although I looked at urban cultures, but, um, Australia's sort of, uh, I guess it's more, it's, it's an individualistic society, whereas India is a collectivist culture and meat itself and Australia has one of the world's highest levels of meat consumption. Um, in 2021, it was sort of close to a hundred kilograms per capita, per anim. Nice. What was that? Sorry? As compared to the, uh, global average actually, which is um, which is 35 kilograms per cap, and the global average includes sort of, um, you know, um, countries that are, it's sort of just all, all types of, uh, countries in terms of the economic trajectory and the consumption habits. India, on the other hand, um, the O E C D reports that, um, the meat consumption levels are only four kilograms per capita. But, uh, what's interesting about the country is because meat consumption is, is sort of the stigma associated with meat consumption. The sort of tends to be commonly underreported in surveys. Um, that's said India, like China, like many developing economies, the, uh, sort of rates of meat consumption are rapidly on the rise. So although what we are finding that in countries like Australia and the US and parts of Europe, um, meat consumption has been at a historic high, but it's sort of peaked, whereas it's the developing regions now sort of the Middle East, um, Africa to, to some degree and certainly AsiaPac. Um, and, and in fact quite heavily AsiaPac that we are finding rates of meat consumption rapidly rising, uh, with, with new emerging middle classes. And so this sort of the comparison across societies and cultures for this PhD, I thought was quite relevant. Oh, that's very interesting. Yeah. Can I ask a dumb question? What percentage of Indian so many dumb questions coming your way, what percentage of India is reported as vegetarian? Surprisingly, actually, uh, it's about 25 to 30%. Oh Yeah. That's smaller Than I would've expected Actually. Yeah. And, um, the, actually it's sort of 70% of India eats meat and chicken and fish are the two most commonly consumed, uh, sources of animal protein. And, and as mentioned, it's sort of, um, uh, you know, it's sort of worth, uh, I guess highlighting that when it comes to, uh, really understanding meat consumption habits and practices, it's sort of, uh, numbers and surveys, et cetera, you tend to kind of want to look deeper behind sort of what's reported behind the official figures. Um, another, another dumb question. Uh, religion and vegetarianism. I'm a Muslim or I'm Hindu. Am I by definition vegetarian? No, God, that's a dumb question. <laugh>. No, no, that's perfectly, that makes a lot of, because, uh, I mean Hinduism, I mean, there are facets, not all of Hinduism actually is, is sort of, is against meat eating. There are aspects of Hinduism that allow meat eating depending on sort of religion and custom. Uh, but I mean, commonly it's commonly sort of the, the common belief and and practice is that if you are Hindu, you would sort of, um, uh, you know, sort of meat consumption is, is frowned upon. It's sort of, it's, it's not allowed. Whereas Islam, uh, like other Abrahamic religions, uh, I e Christianity and Judaism mm-hmm. <affirmative>, um, yeah, there's, there's, there's not really a taboo when it comes to sort of eating meat. There's certainly obviously taboo when it comes to eating certain types of meat like pork, but um, when it comes to eating meat, uh, sort of goat meat and even beef, that's, uh, that's considered Okay. Although that's said within India, there is sort of religious tension because, uh, particularly when it comes to eating beef and which has resulted in sort of mm-hmm. <affirmative>, you know, violence against communal violence against sort of certain minority populations. I, I think it's probably worth highlighting as well that what people may call sort of the hypocrisy because India is actually one of the world's largest exporters. I think the second or the third largest exporter of beef actually <laugh>. Hmm. That's fascinating. Yeah. And that's what makes it sort of, um, ironic, isn't it? So it's not sort of, it's this whole nationalistic right wing religious protocol and underneath that you've got sort of something else happening. So yeah, that's what makes this meat consumption within India and, and certainly other societies as well. Interesting. And, and quite paradoxical. Wow. That's, that's fascinating. You know, I, for the listeners, I feel like I just should clarify one thing. Everyone, when you heard Jason just come out of his shoes, uh, uh, talking about meat consumption, you may think to yourself, okay, he's just goofing around. But I can tell you as someone who has served Jason a steak, that it's real there. If you served Jason A. Good steak, there will be nothing left at the end. He is a man who likes his meat. I'm just saying. I know, but that, that a hundred kilograms per capita for Australia is insane. Yeah. A couple of comments. One is that, I mean, Australian beef exports are huge and remembering we do live exports of beef. Is that right, Dr. Carra? Yes. To the middle, middle East. And we do that for halal purposes. No. Why do we do That? Actually, that that is a good, uh, that's a good question. And yes, halal purposes is, is a factor mm-hmm. <affirmative>, um, you know, the freshness of meat and, and, you know, slaughtering of life cattle and perhaps it may relate to halal, given that, that the Middle East is, is sort of an important, um, you know, trading partner for, for Australia or rather an important sort of Customer. So For our, just to check in with our incredibly vast audience here, there are gonna be some people who don't know what Halal is either. So can we just do a quick primer on that one? It's a, um, it's, it's a set of, uh, this is terrible. It's a certification, isn't it, for, for the, how meat is treated before it's eaten. Is that right? Oh, not meat. It's all food. It's all food, right? Uh, yes. That, that's my, I'm not, uh, I'm not sort of an expert in halal, but, but yes, that's my understanding as well. Okay. So if you're Jewish, if you're Jewish, you'd want a kosher, certified kosher food. And if you are of the Muslim faith, you need it to be Hal certified. So here in Indonesia it's a big thing. Got it. One other thing, I just remember the, the export of, or the consumption of beef in Japan soared through the seventies. And what happened was that lockstep increase in stomach cancer, and I think they might be number one or two today. Have you ever heard of that? Um, Um, yeah, actually that's interesting cuz I, um, there are sort of reports about sort of western diets, western diets and inverted commerce and, you know, high lows of meat consumption. I mean, there's a lot of data already on, particularly when it comes to red meat consumption and it's, uh, it's sort of, it's associations with all forms of obesity and, and diabetes and, you know, higher blood sugar levels and, and, uh, and forms of cancer. And certainly, um, I mean the W H O had put out a report about sort of processed red meat in particular and, um, the rise in carins in processed red meat mm-hmm. <affirmative>, and thus of course, you know, rating high likelihood of cancer. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Yeah, no, it's, it's interesting stuff. I think just culturally there's such non meat eaters and I think to throw that into their mix was just a huge shock. One, one thing, many things. But one of the things that, uh, emerged in your research was this idea that, um, vegetarians secretly eating meat <laugh>. Yeah. <laugh>, you told me that story. What's going on there and is it like Mason sneaking chocolate? So my kids and wife don't see me eating chocolate <laugh>. Probably, it's probably probably similar to that, Jason. It, um, so in, in India, and so this was an interesting topic which we explored as, which I explored as part of the, uh, PhD was just this secret meat eating, huh. In, uh, in, in India. And because, because there is such a taboo associated with meat consumption, uh, which is actually interestingly, which is where sort of there's opportunity potentially for plant paste meats, but, um, we'll probably get to that topic, um mm-hmm. <affirmative>, uh, later there's such a taboo associated with meat consumption and, uh, given sort of, you know, Hindu religious, uh, you know, sentiment and stigma, I wrote a whole paper on the different ways in which secret meat heating occurs among sort of, among different segments of people, uh, within urban Indian society. And it was just where people would sort of, they were expected to maybe abstain from meat on certain days of the week or, or during sort of religious festivals or simply because meat was not allowed to be consumed in their homes. And so they'd find all sorts of ways, uh, to kind of eat meat either, uh, at a restaurant away from the family, uh, on a work trip. Um, you know, sort of some respondents spoke about being meat eaters for several years and their vegetarian families not knowing the interesting, um, the interesting one was it's sort of, it's a bit like being a smoker, but I guess with a smoker you can kind of, yeah, it's maybe easier to detect. Uh, I'm not sure. But others spoke about being, in fact there's certain, when, when you're looking to rent in, uh, certain apartment buildings in Mumbai, in fact the, the, the body, the um, the building body, uh, can mandate, you know, that they say non-vegetarians are not allowed. And so if you are sort of cooking, cooking meat within the apartment, you know, sort of the neighbors can kind of, and there's also that social, um, ostracism as well that can take place in the social judgment. And so it was just about sort of cooking meat quietly within your apartments without the neighbors finding out as well. So it wasn't just an issue with friends and family, but it was also sort of trying to conform to the expectations of, um, of, of larger society, i e the neighbors and the collective community, which is what made it interesting, which, you know, especially when looking at these things within a collectivist culture, because there's so much sort of, I guess, you know, pressure to conform to sort of public and social norms. Uh, and in this case, um, this relates to sort of having the right eating practices and following of course as part of sort of larger social practices. So I thought I, maybe I could, um, take us to the universe of reasons why people might want to eat a meat substitute. Cuz it, this is adding to I think, many people's understanding, right? Some people are doing this because they simply want to be healthier and there's evidence that this is, you know, eating meat's bad for you at some level. Uh, the second reason I'm hearing is there's, there's religious reasons to not eat meat for certain people. The third one that I've heard is, uh, there's Jason, I'm sure you know, there's a lot of arguments around environmentalism mm-hmm. <affirmative> and, uh, reducing the amount of cows in the world because of interesting things like bovine flatulence. But then there's also just some people who want to be good to the animals, right? They just, they just want to make sure that they're not doing anything to, uh, to harm other life forms. I is that sound like all of the reasons why some company might say, it's time for me to make a meat substitute cuz there's a, there's a demand out there or is there something we're missing? Uh, yeah, you've covered actually, um, yep. Those, those reasons. So it's okay. Pretty much sort of environmental health related and, and animal welfare. These three tend to be sort of the, the top reasons. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, um, there are sort of other factors like, um, you know, when it comes to sort of vegetarianism and again that differs between east and west. But yeah, those three reasons tend to be the, the top reasons in general. So why is there a struggle in that world then? It seems to me like we've just set up a situation where the people making meat substitute foods would be doing very, very well. And yet the premise of the episode is that they're not <laugh> so Well, well they were, what's going on? They were doing so great. So Impossible foods and others. So this is protein based meat, just to be clear cuz we wanna get onto cell based in a minute, but this is protein based meat. Okay. So, so tani, the, what's the description of protein-based meat? What would you make meat out of if it's not the four-legged thing in the farm? Yeah, so I mean, the difference, a soy is quite a common, um, a common ingredient. So there's soy, there's also legumes and pea protein as well. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, the other types of is also myprotein, where you've got sort of, it's essentially fermented fungus, which is what corn is made out of. So that's Q U O R M. Oh Yeah. Mm-hmm. That grand. And That's, yeah, that's been around for, for a while. So that's sort of typically what, um, plant-based meats are made off. Got It. So, so $5 billion goes into this industry, probably more. And Impossible Foods is the, probably one of the bigger brands. They're selling these plant based meats to Burger King and McDonald's and it's going amazingly. And then you and I spoke about six or eight months ago and the, they'd fallen out of bed. And I, we, one of the things is what's what's happening there? Yeah. Actually it's still within, I guess. Uh, and I mean, I was looking at other reports as well, it's sort of like there was a lot of hype attached to, to the sector and sort of, and, and a lot of expectation, a lot of attention given. And I think what, what's what's happened is, is that sector is still probably growing because, simply because I mean meat consumption, uh, and the animal livestock industry, i e animal agriculture is actually not going to be sustainable, you know, now. And, uh, and, and in the long term. So there'll almost probably be a place for sort of meat, uh, meat alternatives. It's just that there was so much hype and attention attached to this sector. And it's kind of like, it, it sort of feels like when looking at other reports that things are starting to sort of normalize, um, rather than kind of, rather than, you know, all the excitement and all of that that was, um, that we saw around the sector. So when looking at some of, some of the figures from, you know, the vegan society in the UK and looking at the European figures and some of the figures here in Australia as well, you know, they're still showing healthy growth. It, it's still, you know, I think the figures sort of in 20 20 26 there was a projection in 2030. It's, there's still, there's still a projection of sort of fairly healthy growth. It's just that even when, uh, you know, with the sort of Covid pandemic, uh, I mean we started to see, you know, the rise of sort of plant-based, uh, plant-based meat sales because people were sort of worried about, um, you know, just contamination in these meat markets, these wet meat markets. Yeah. Right. Um, so it does feel like that there is a space for it, but it feels like some of the hype and glitz and, you know, the massive attention and all of that seems to be kind of petering out and it's sort of, of starting to normalize, Right? So with an analogy be something like what happened to Peloton during the pandemic where everybody's buying bikes, everybody gets excited because nobody can go and work out at their gym anymore. And so Peloton has this huge growth, they make a bunch of orders with their suppliers, and then about the time those orders come in, people stop ordering the service. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> is, is it sort of like that where Yeah, there's still a lot of demand, it's just that they've, there was a presumption that the demand would be even larger than it now is? Yeah, it's sort of, it, it generally it sort of feels like that. Okay. Um, that said, like during the pandemic, it was interesting that, and since the pandemic we've found that people have started to, particularly in places like the UK where um, you know, given sort of the crazy inflation there, people have started to buy sort of more in bulk and they've started to buy more sort of raw foods. They're not looking at sort of expensive, uh, rather more expensive packaged foods, which is what a lot of plant-based meats are. So people are sort of almost starting to go back to the basics mm-hmm. <affirmative>. But that said, um, what, what we also saw is certain reports that came out, like, uh, the Mintel reports, um, show that the meat sales that sort of slightly dropped as well, Right. In, in Europe particularly, I mean, um, focusing on sort of the UK just given that, given sort of the state of the current, the current economic state there. And then of course post pandemic, uh, elsewhere. Right. If I'm, um, if I'm a vegetarian, do I look at plant-based burger at Burger King and go, oh heck yeah. Or do I throw up and go, that's disgusting, that's made in a lab, what would I do? <laugh>? Can you, can you, can you represent all vegetarians in that answer please? <laugh>, you know, Actually the plant-based, uh, and Myprotein and that sort of whole cultured meat was really not targeted at the vegan and vegetarians actually. Cause I mean, relatively speaking, they're quite a small percentage, um, like within Australia, 20% identifies flexitarian and about 12% identifies as, as sort of being, being plant based. So that's sort of 12% of the population and sort of, it's slowly, gradually growing, but it's a, it's a very small percentage compared to the overall population. And certainly I would imagine it's the case in the US and, and parts of Europe as well. And certainly in India, um, you know, which is sort of has, uh, relatively higher rates of, um, you know, uh, plant-based consumption as compared to other western societies. So you've just got this big chunk of meat eaters and flexitarians mm-hmm. <affirmative> and the plant-based companies are, are sort of targeting them more than the vegans and vegetarians, cuz actually the vegans and vegetarians within this community, you've got sort of, uh, discussions between whole foods going for whole foods versus plant-based meat. So that's another argument altogether. And then there's sort of different forms of kind of plant-based eating within the community. So it's that it's not really meant for people who are already plant-based. I mean, yes. That, that is a market as well, but these guys are sort of targeting the people sitting on the fence. I e the large number of flexitarians and, and meat eaters. Right. So if I'm, that's Fascinating. If I'm a, if I'm a red hot meat eater, oh gosh, I am and I rock into McDonald's and get my, um, quarter pounder with cheese, but it's made from mushroom based meat, would I be doing that because I wanna save the planet or would I be doing that because I like the furry animals? Is there a really clear split, like, is it 50 50 or is it one way or The other? Actually there sort of, it's more, it's looking at meat eaters who want to be, uh, at sort of the flexitarian meat eater that's sort of the flexitarian. So say on a certain day you kind of wanna, you know, cut back on eating meat. Uh, so you wanna sort of give maybe the digestive system rest or maybe you, you know, feel for the animals on that particular day. So that's when you'd sort of go, you know, I'd maybe sort of switch, switch from meat and I'd have sort of the, the plant-based burger. So this is actually, um, there's an advertisement, uh, from Dominoes, uh, which has been, which I've been seeing recently, and it's called The Impossible, the Impossible Pizza Night. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, uh, I, I dunno whether you've seen that, that advertisement. Yeah. So it's kind of, they sort of show this group of kids and one of the kids orders a pizza and she, uh, sort of goes that, Hey, but I thought we were gonna go meat free tonight. And the other kid goes, yes, we are going meat free and so we can have our pizza and, and eat it too, essentially. So it's, so it's called the Impossible Pizza night, so you can have your pizza with and enjoy the taste of meat, but without actually having meat. Got it. On that particular night. Got it. In America, some people have a meatless Monday Practice. Oh, mm-hmm. <affirmative>, right? Yeah. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Yeah. That's interesting. Of Course, of course. That's followed by Taco Tuesday, so it kind of cancels it out a little bit, but you know, I mean, you gotta do it sometimes, you know, Jason have, have you experimented with something other than bacon in the morning? I'm Just curious. I I really can't do it. I, I, no, no, I have a big problem. I just feel this is terrible. But I just feel like anything grown in a, this is so flawed and cognitive dissonance, but I just, I get really freaked out about it. The other version is cell-based meat, so that's meat that's grown from the cells of a cow and that's now coming on big. Um, and in the, in the textile industry you've got vegan leather, so that's leather made from mushrooms. I don't, for some reason I just get freaked out ingesting food made out of it, made, uh, in a laboratory, which is ridiculous cuz meat is so processed, it's stupid. But anyway, are you into it, Chris? Do you do meat-free Monday? Um, so it's, uh, you know, it's interesting. I'm, I'm of two minds on all this. I am firmly of the belief that overall beef in particular is probably not something you ever need to eat. I just happen to like it mm-hmm. <affirmative>. So I just reduce my consumption of it. But I have heard some incredibly smart people with credentials, uh, like the good doctor here who have said things to vegetarians like, look, if you, you eat, you know, good meat and you, you eat it from good sources and, you know, all all this sort of thing, you know, you can really, you can do a lot with your workouts and you can do a lot with your health. And there are some people who push back and they say, part of the problem isn't eating beef, they say it's eating mass produced beef mm-hmm. <affirmative> or Right. It's, it's, it's because you didn't, you didn't know what the name of the cow was and the farmer who grew it. And so it's, it's unclear I think, really, but I do think there's a strong argument for has this thing been processed or not. And I think that's the interesting conundrum you're pointing out, which is what if your doing this for reasons where you're trying to make the planet better, you're trying to not hurt animals as much, and in the meantime you're consuming basically a laboratory, which seems a little weird going along with that. You know, I, I mean, I had a friend who was a vegetarian who wore a leather jacket and I always kind of <laugh> <laugh>. Okay. You know? Okay. So yeah, I, I guess so I don't know what to say there. I mean, it's, it's a conundrum and it's one of those things that I think we all wrestle with because we all wanna do what's better for the planet and what be, what's better for us. Um, I'll tell you, just coming from my background, watching people try to, uh, reconcile their cognitive dissonance around these issues is the most entertaining for me. Like, listening to people talk about how important it is to eat, like how good beef is for you I is, is always kind of entertaining for me because I'm sitting there watching them thinking, okay, we all just know that you really like beef and for some reason you have a hard time saying, but I just really like it even though it's probably not that good for me. Right. So I think that's the interesting thing in my world is, is just watching people manage it. Right. Um, in their own mind. I don't know, <laugh>, no doctor, if that's, that's a big curve ball. Uh, I don't know if you get, if you, uh, dabble into any of the, the way people justify this, but it seems to me if you're dealing with people, if if you're studying the, the behavior of people sneaking meat, you're probably a little into that territory. Right? Yeah. And you make a really good point, Chris, because, you know, it's such a, it, it, as mentioned, it's, it's such a controversial topic and there's so many different perspectives on this. In fact, you know, in Europe they were looking at a meat tax. I'm not sure whether that sort of came about, but there, there are sort of papers and, and articles and reports and sort of a meat tax given that it is such It is, it is, it is an environmentally friendly and, and environmentally unfriendly food. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> throughout sort of the literature, there's been kind of discourse about just how about just sort of pushback, pushback from people because attacks around something that is so personal to to, to, to someone, you know, consumption is such a personal thing that, um, you know, sort of, I guess politicians everywhere have kind of been, um, you know, quite reluctant to impose attacks on, on consumption essentially because it is, it is such a, it is such a personally, it, it's, it's just such a personal thing. Yeah. I don't know what people would do in Australia, Jason, but I can think of a revolution that might occur in America if you suddenly put a tack on certain forms of meat or, or if you banned outright, there'd be places where, you know, people would pick up their pitchforks and charge it. It's, there are certain places in America where the diet is almost exclusively Yeah. You know, meat and potatoes. Cuz we were settled by British people and Irish people and German people, and that's what they ate. Yeah. And so Yeah, Thanksgiving would be very contentious if that Turkey was costing me more if It was a tofurky. Oh my god. Not a Tofurky. You can't do Tofurky. That is illegal. <laugh>. Oh boy. Tne. I do wanna get a little bit personal with you. What did you have for breakfast and have you ever worn leather shoes? <laugh> <laugh> Actually Jason, you know, I, I grew up in a meeting household. My, my family, they eat, they eat practically everything that moves <laugh>. Um, and, and, and still do. I'm, I'm the old one out and I think I started getting into it after I started finding out about 10 years ago. Just, you know, where does the chicken on your plate come from? So I actually grew up eating, eating everything. And there was a documentary from sort of Mercy, mercy for Animals, which is that large animal welfare ngo. And they produced a documentary a couple of, uh, 10, 10 years ago, actually. It's called From Farm to Plate. Uh, and I saw that and I was just like, uh, you know, for a week I was, By the way, anybody who really wants a little help getting over the vegetarian line, just watch any documentary that involves Yeah. Chicken processing or slaughter houses Oh God. Or anything. It is so much easier to do after you've seen that. That's True. So, and t Tani, to be clear, you're cross, you're bicultural. So you are raised in Australia and born in Australia, is that right? Uh, well actually I was, uh, I was born in India, raised in Singapore, and now living in Australia. Got It. So you are the United Nations. Got it. <laugh>. Well, Well I'm realizing our time's up. Uh, we've gotta ask, uh, doctor, is there any myths that you'd like to bust? We ask people this on the show, there's probably myths you come across all the time. What's a big one you can share with us? I don't know. Where do I start? Actually, I don't know whether it's worth highlighting, um, sort of a recent study we had done. So this was with the, with the isf, um, the, the place that I work, the Institute for Sustainable Futures. And we had done the study where, uh, we looked at sort of, we synthesized sort of 12 lifecycle assessment studies across different types of, of foods. And just some interesting facts here was our findings show that, you know, replacing just 25% of beef with plant-based alternatives. So you walk into a McDonald's and you know, you choose sort of, uh, your plant-based burger instead of beef. And so if people, it just replacing 25% of beef with plant-based alternatives, say if it was done across the population, that would be equivalent to taking 150,000 cars off the road. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, it would be equivalent to saving water that's equivalent to, uh, 5,200 Olympic swimming pools. Wow. And it would actually save in terms of land area. So that could be about 35,000 Melbourne crooked ground stadiums. Oh my gosh. Oh, wow. So this was modeling which, which the team, um, which we'd done recently. And I just think in terms of sort of myth, myth is sort of one thing, but even just sort of examining, um, you know, the potential difference that one can make by just sort of, by, just by just that 25% replacement beef with plant based alternative, it makes such a big difference in terms of water saving, energy saving and, and, and land saving. So I kind of just, uh, wanted to, uh, just put this out There and Yeah, that's, that's fascinating because it is absolutely, it's like so many problems with sustainability is the individual saying, well, what can I do? You know, how can my choice really impact the greater, but that's, that's a great, uh, data point. Absolutely. Yes. That, that, that's very interesting. It, thank you so much for being on the program, Dr. Karara. We really appreciate your insight and, and the conversation. Thank you. Thank you. And it's six o It's six o'clock here in Bali, and I'm about to have breakfast and I'm contemplating a, a foam meat bacon sandwich. <laugh>, You better take a picture If that happens. Yeah, I'll, I'll believe you. <laugh>. All right. Thanks Tani. So appreciate it. Bye. Thank You for joining us at the Recombobulator Lab with Chris Dominic and Jason Graham. Catch next.

Other Episodes

Episode 30

June 09, 2021 00:31:41
Episode Cover

The Post-Pandemic Mental Comeback with Doug Keene, Ph.D.-Ep.30

Jason & Chris welcome Doug Keene, Ph.D., back to the show to discuss some of the mental health terms being published in articles throughout...

Listen

Episode 25

May 05, 2021 00:31:48
Episode Cover

The Post-Pandemic Workplace with Futurist, Tom Osdoba-Ep.25

Friend of the Lab, Futurist Tom Osdoba joins Jason & Chris to talk about the post-pandemic workplace. Chris shares good news and Jason compares...

Listen

Episode 21

April 07, 2021 00:33:14
Episode Cover

Courageous Marketing with Former Jordan Brand’s Tom Kelley-Ep.21

Jason & Chris catch up on the state of the pandemic in Australia and America before diving into a quiz on some of the...

Listen